California Governor Gray Davis is going to make an announcement tomorrow!

Lola · #1 04-04-2001, 08:00 PM

On 4/4/01 7:06:28 PM, Jonina Dourif wrote: 
>Anybody got the dirt on this? 
> 
>What kind of plane was it? 
 
Joni listen to this one: 
 
A caller into Rush Limbaugh radio afternoon show suggested that it was a setup by the Americans. A type of wag a dog scenario to entice the Chinese and then be able to sell armaments to Taiwan! Either the caller has a great imagination or he was AOLing the call. 
 
What a fertile imagination or was it?. The bill was approved for the sale that same day. 
 
Dolores 
 
 
 
********************* 
Each one finds the teacher that 
Each one deserves -> The Kabbalah

jefflucas · #2 04-04-2001, 09:08 PM

On 4/4/01 7:06:28 PM, Jonina Dourif wrote: 
>Anybody got the dirt on this? 
> 
>What kind of plane was it? 
 
Navy EP3 
 
<img src="http://www.pacom.mil/imagery/archive/010331ep3plane-l.jpg"><IMG SRC="http://foxnews.com/fn99/national/040201/images/china_map.gif" ALIGNT="RIGHT"> 
 
<a target=_new href="http://www.navy.mil/homepages/vx-1/ep3.htm">http://www.navy.mil/homepages/vx-1/ep3.htm</a> 
 
The EP-3E ARIES II aircraft is a four-engine, low-wing, electronic warfare and reconnaissance aircraft utilizing state-of-the-art electronic surveillance equipment for its primary mission. It is powered by four Allison T56-A-14 turboprop engines, and has a wing span of 99 ft, 8 in., a length of 105 ft, 11 in., and a height of 34 ft, 3 in. There are 24 numbered seating positions, of which 19 are crew stations. The ARIES II is capable of a 12+ hour endurance and a 3000+ nautical mile range. 
 
<a target=_new href="http://www.pacom.mil/">http://www.pacom.mil/</a> - U.S. Pacific Command 
 
<img src="http://www.viablewebsolutions.com/vq/EP-3E1.jpg"> 
 
<img src="http://www.viablewebsolutions.com/vq/ep3a3.jpg"> 
 
<img src="http://www.viablewebsolutions.com/vq/ep3toff.jpg"> 
 
<img src="http://www.viablewebsolutions.com/vq/ep3slant.jpg"> 
 
<img src="http://www.viablewebsolutions.com/vq/EP-3E3.gif">

jefflucas · #3 04-04-2001, 09:22 PM

Powell Sends Letter to Chinese Officials;

Offers Regrets But No Apology 

 

Wednesday, April 4, 2001 

Fox News 

Secretary of State Colin Powell on Wednesday gave a letter to the Chinese ambassador to the U.S. to deliver to Chinese Vice Premier Qian Qichen — an attempt to move diplomatic efforts up a notch in seeking the release of 24 Navy plane crew members being held in "protective custody" on Hainan island, Fox News has learned.



After China demanded an apology early Wednesday for the collision of the American surveillance plane with a Chinese fighter last Sunday, Powell apparently tried to soften the rhetoric, offering American regrets that the Chinese pilot was apparently killed in the incident.



However, the letter sent to Beijing elevates the official dialogue to its highest level thus far between the U.S. and Chinese governments.



State Department officials wouldn't divulge specifics about the letter, saying only that it transmits the U.S. views on the standoff, namely stressing first and foremost, full access to the 24 American detainees and their return home. The letter did not go into "consequences" there may be if there's no quick resolution, sources told Fox News.



At least as significant as the letter's existence is its recipient — Vice Premier Qichen — the high-ranking official who just visited the U.S. a couple of weeks ago and held talks with not only Powell but also President Bush.



Qian's rank is, in fact, above Powell's within the Chinese government — but his position doesn't have an exact equivalent in the U.S. Cabinet.



The Chinese ambassador, meanwhile, didn't bring anything new to the meeting with the State Department — even though he was the one who requested it.



There is still no Chinese response to the U.S. request for a second visit and full access to the detained crew, much less the return of the crewmen and their plane. Neither did the ambassador respond to Powell's earlier expressions of regret for the loss of the pilot's life.



Powell offered the comments after the Chinese president publicly demanded a U.S. apology for the incident.



"The U.S. side should apologize to the Chinese people," President Jiang Zemin said Wednesday before leaving Beijing on a tour of Latin America. He said Washington "should bear all responsibilities for the collision incident," according to the official Xinhua News Agency.



In the afternoon, Secretary of State Colin Powell expressed "regret" for the loss of a Chinese airman. 

"We regret the loss of life of that Chinese pilot, but now we need to move on," Powell said. "We need to bring this to a resolution and we're using every avenue available to us to talk to the Chinese side to exchange explanations."



But White House spokeman Ari Fleischer made it clear that America has done nothing that warrants an apology. 

"The United States doesn't understand the reason for an apology," Fleischer said. "Our airplanes are operating in international airspace, and the United States did nothing wrong."



Loaded with sensitive eavesdropping equipment, the U.S. Navy EP-3E Aries II was flying off the southern Chinese coast when it collided with one of two Chinese F-8 fighters sent up to track it.



The U.S. plane made an emergency landing at a flight base about 60 miles away on the Chinese island of Hainan, where Chinese authorities confined the 21 men and three women who made up the crew, separating them from each other, on the grounds that they had made an unauthorized landing.



The F-8 involved in the collision crashed into the ocean. Its pilot, identified as Wang Wei, apparently bailed out, but has not been found. Xinhua said a search for him was stepped up Wednesday, with 48 planes and 29 ships scanning the sea. The U.S. has offered to assist in the search. 

Each side has blamed the other's plane for the collision. The U.S. says its plane was flying in international airspace. China says the EP-3E violated its sovereignty and has demanded that the U.S. stop surveillance flights along its shoreline.



Wednesday afternoon, Fleischer made it clear that Washington considers the crew members not China's guests but its "detainees."



U.S. diplomats were allowed to see the crew for the first time late Tuesday and found them in good health. Chinese officials refused to allow the American officials to meet alone with the crew members and have not allowed them to contact their families in the United States. 

The officials said there was no indication when they could see the 21 men and three women again. Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhu Bangzao, said Tuesday he didn't know when the crew would be released. He their fate would depend on a Chinese investigation.



"They're being held incommunicado under circumstances that I don't find acceptable," Secretary of State Powell said. "The Chinese have said they're being protected — I don't know from what. In my judgment, they're being detained." 

Bush said he wanted to give China time to respond in order to prevent the stalemate from escalating into a full-blown crisis. But he said a grace period was quickly running out.



Officials said Bush's national security team was considering a range of options in the event China does not act quickly. The options, which the officials said have not reached Bush's desk, include canceling Bush's planned trip to Beijing — announced just last month during a White House visit by China's deputy prime minister — and withdrawing some diplomats from China.



Despite a call from Zemin to end surveillance flights, Pentagon spokesman, Rear Adm. Craig Quigley, said in Washington that the United States was unlikely to stop. They are meant to gather information on China's military by recording radio, radar and other signals. 

Further complicating matters is the evidence that Chinese authorities may have in their hands highly sensitive American spying equipment. 

Pictures of the EP-3E in state newspapers Wednesday showed damage to its leftmost propeller and the underside of its left wing. The plane's nose cone containing its radar antennae appeared to have been removed, despite U.S. protestations that the plane is sovereign territory that Chinese authorities cannot board without the plane commander's permission.



U.S. officials said the crew indicated they managed to destroy at least some of the highly sensitive electronic intelligence-gathering equipment and data on board the plane before it landed, but it was unclear Tuesday how much of an intelligence bonanza the Chinese might enjoy if they should keep the plane. 

Captions claimed the damage was evidence that the American plane had veered erratically to the left, causing it to collide with the Chinese jet flying wing-to-wing 1,300 feet away. 

An American official said two of the plane's four propellers were damaged as well as the nose cone, wing flaps and equipment indicating the plane's air speed. The plane plummeted 8,000 feet at one point, said the official.



Certain to add even more to the strain, a U.S.-based Chinese political scientist whose detention caused a diplomatic uproar with Washington has been formally arrested on spying charges, a human rights group said Wednesday. 

Gao Zhan is accused of "accepting money from a foreign intelligence agency and participating in espionage activities in China," New York-based Human Rights in China said.



— Fox News' Teri Shultz and the Associated Press contributed to this report

jefflucas · #4 04-04-2001, 09:34 PM

On 4/4/01 8:55:05 PM, Carol Strauss wrote: 
>supposed to be really 
>something...that means this 
>may be the last post I ever 
>make anywhere. God Help 
>California! 
> 
 
Resign and then endorse Arnold's candidacy? 
 
<IMG SRC="http://www.arnoldschwarzenegger.com/english/private/comps/intro/images/arnold_intro.jpg" align="left"> 
 
SCHWARZENEGGER.COM EXCLUSIVE! 
ARNOLD SPEAKS ABOUT HIS POSSIBLE RUN FOR 
GOVERNOR 
 
"As many of you know by now, a lot of people have been talking about my running for Governor of California in 2002. I want to let you all know firsthand that it is true that I am exploring running for Governor, and I admit it's been great learning about so many new things, but I am definitely not committing either way at this time. 
 
I'll keep all of you posted on my website, but in the meantime, take a look at the two articles below from the March 13, 2001 Los 
Angeles Times and March 13, 2001 <A HREF="http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/13/politics/13CALI.html">New York Times</a>, which make for some interesting reading!"

jefflucas · #5 04-05-2001, 12:02 AM

Chinese Jet Flew Below U.S. Plane Before Impact 

By John Pomfret 

Washington Post Foreign Service 

Thursday, April 5, 2001; Page A01



BEIJING, April 4 -- The midair collision that touched off a crisis between China and the United States occurred after a Chinese F-8 interceptor started to fly directly below a U.S. surveillance plane and the U.S. aircraft executed a banking maneuver off to the left, Western sources said today.

 The new details of Sunday's accident, provided by sources briefed by U.S. officials, did not make clear who was to blame. But they seemed to explain the rationale behind Chinese assertions that the American plane moved "suddenly" and thereby triggered the accident, causing the Chinese fighter to crash with the apparent loss of its pilot.

 Chinese leaders, blaming the accident on the United States, have demanded that the Bush administration apologize and accept responsibility, something Washington has refused to do.

 Although it was known that the U.S. Navy EP-3E Aries II reconnaissance plane was being shadowed by two Chinese F-8s, neither Chinese nor U.S. officials have publicly revealed the U.S. plane's turn to the left or the Chinese jet's position -- just under the EP-3 and very close to it -- before the maneuver began.

 A U.S. defense official said Chinese planes began flying extremely close to U.S. surveillance planes late last fall, prompting the United States to raise the issue with the Chinese in December. Chinese pilots have been coming as close as 50 feet to U.S. planes, one American official said, although the distance between the planes before Sunday's collision was not known.

 Following the collision, which occurred in international airspace 70 nautical miles southeast of Hainan Island, the American plane plummeted 8,000 feet before the pilot succeeded in righting it. At that point, the Western sources said, the U.S. crew began destroying sensitive software and data in the technology-laden aircraft.

 The pilot came into Lingshui air base on Hainan extremely fast, without slowing the plane by extending its wing flaps, a Pentagon official said. Because there was an unknown amount of damage to the underside of the aircraft, he was concerned that his controls might be damaged, and that the flaps on one side might work but the other side would be frozen, the official said. "It was an incredible landing," the official said.

 After the plane stopped, armed Chinese guards surrounded it and boarded it, escorting the Americans out at gunpoint, a Western source said. A day after the crash, the sources said, the People's Liberation Army dispatched a cargo plane loaded with men and technical equipment from Beijing to the base. The men and equipment were sent to study the aircraft, the sources said, adding that Chinese soldiers later were seen by U.S. intelligence satellites removing equipment from the plane.

 U.S. officials have told allies they "were fairly confident that the most sensitive data was destroyed" during the 26 minutes between the accident and an emergency landing on Hainan, one source said. Nonetheless, that Western source, after a briefing by American officials, described the arrival on Chinese soil of the EP-3 as a "fantastic windfall" for China's military intelligence.

 "Given the Chinese ability to reverse-engineer these types of things, the intelligence loss is pretty serious," he said.

 Rep. Mark Kirk (R-Ill.), a Naval intelligence reservist who was briefed by Pentagon officials on the situation, said in Washington that there has been a "considerable" loss of intelligence.

 "We don't know how much they got rid of" before the plane landed, he said. "A lot of stuff is bolted, so it takes a while to get rid of it."

 Kirk, who flew on a similar Air Force reconnaissance plane during the Kosovo air campaign, said the EP-3 lacks any defensive capabilities. "Its sole ability is the big American insignia on the outside of the fuselage," he said.

 The new details emerged here as China ratcheted up its verbal attacks and threats against the United States in the aftermath of the accident, which has left the EP-3's 24 crew members stranded on Hainan in Chinese custody. China allowed U.S. diplomats to meet with the group on Tuesday but today refused a request for a second meeting.

 The diplomats had stocked up on deodorant, shaving kits and underwear in hopes of being allowed to give the items to the crew members. The U.S. defense attache, Brig. Gen. Neal Sealock, led a mission through the palm-lined streets of Haikou, capital of Hainan province, to a downtown shopping mall to buy the provisions.

 Western sources said China is not interrogating the Americans, but it has separated the pilot from the rest of the crew. In a briefing Tuesday, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhu Bangzao did not rule out charging the pilot with crimes. The Web site operated by the People's Daily, the Communist Party organ, hosted a legal scholar, Zhou Jianhai, who opined that China was within its rights to confiscate the plane and charge the pilot.

 "No one thinks they will actually do this," said one Western diplomat, "but they are being very deliberate here in laying out their options."

 After several days of restrained reporting on the issue, China's state-run media adopted a more shrill tone. The nightly news, normally 30 minutes, was extended to 50 minutes to make way for numerous reports on the crash. State-run TV showed, for the first time, a photograph of the missing pilot, Wang Wei.

 "The wild card incident will be how China deals with the body of the pilot if they ever find him," a Western diplomat said. "This has the potential to ratchet up the temperature." 



 Staff writer Thomas E. Ricks in Washington contributed to this report.

Pele · #6 04-05-2001, 12:28 AM

On 4/4/01 8:00:58 PM, Dolores Allegue wrote: Joni listen to this one: A caller into Rush Limbaugh radio 
afternoon show suggested that it was a setup by the Americans. A type of wag a dog scenario to entice the Chinese and then be able to sell armaments to Taiwan! Either the caller has a great imagination or he was AOLing the call. What a fertile imagination or was it?. The bill was approved for the sale that same day. Dolores

Something definitely smells fishy, but I thought we, basically, quit those lame and conspicuous setups in the 60's.

Although, I guess we do have a cowboy back in the drivers seat.!
 
*cringe* 
 
(the Bushites will be waking soon!)

Pele · #7 04-05-2001, 10:08 PM

On 4/5/01 5:50:07 PM, Carol Strauss wrote: actually, it is not a spy plane, and the hot dog was the chinese pilot--he's reckless--other pilots have photos of him so close you can see his face from our cockpit--he has come within feet of our aircraft in the past..the 20 yard? thing is for aircraft--the longer distance mentioned is for
ships only--and we are not at war cold or hot with china--so
the international pilots rules apply--which is when in
trouble to land, and the country you land in gives you
a hand in getting in the air again...(that is the gist of
it--I heard interviews with pilots this morning)--International rules do not allow for the invasion of that aircraft or holding the crew prisoner--I have a question-is what china did, an act of war?

Carol, 
 
I heard that it was a very sophisticated "surveillance (spy) plane" I heard that it was so elite, in fact, that the pilots were suppose to "self-destruct and destroy" it rather than land.

Both parties are acting like war (in my opinion). It's just a covert-under-current one. 
 
Here's my (cynical & opinionated) prediction. 
The US will apologize, China will return the (thoroughly interrogated) pilots and plane. The politicians will present their carefully calculated speeches and sad faces, then they will shake hands and smile for the cameras. Everyone will gripe for a while (until something else happens) and CNN will rake in the ratings and nothing will change.

Any other predictions?

Sheryll · #8 04-05-2001, 10:34 PM

On 4/5/01 12:28:48 AM, Jonina Dourif wrote: 
>On 4/4/01 8:00:58 PM, Dolores Allegue 
>wrote:Joni listen to this one: A caller 
>into Rush Limbaugh radio 
>afternoon show suggested that it was a 
>setup by the Americans. A type of wag a 
>dog scenario to entice the Chinese and 
>then be able to sell armaments to 
>Taiwan! Either the caller has a great 
>imagination or he was AOLing the call. 
>What a fertile imagination or was it?. 
>The bill was approved for the sale that 
>same day. Dolores 
> 
>Something definitely smells fishy, but I 
>thought we, basically, quit those lame 
>and conspicuous setups in the 60's. 
> 
>Although, I guess we do have a cowboy 
>back in the drivers seat.! 
> 
>*cringe* 
> 
>(the Bushites will be waking soon!) 
> 
We use to do this with the Soviets off the Alaskan coast all the time, except our pilots knew better than to crowd a larger slow moving aircraft. The pilot that crashed has,in the past went under the american plane and then tried to pull up just under the nose of the american aircraft. A very stupid and dangerous stunt. The claim is that the american plane made a quick left turn. that would lift the right wing. The chinese plane struck the bottom of the right wing and then took off the nose cone on the american. It would seem that perhaps the american pilot was trying to avoid the hot dog jet fighter. In cases like this the smaller, faster and more nimble aircraft has the responsibility to avoid the larger aircraft. The chinese have intentionally incited this event. The problem is that the Clinton administration allowed the chinese to gain 20 years in their technology so he could get their illegal contributions for his reelection. Like all comunist they are liers and will do anything to destroy our sociaty and take it over. They are more dangerous than the soviets because they uderstand the advantage of using capitalism to raise funds to build up their military, unlike the soviets who had a failing economic system, that would have collasped with or without the Reagon military build up. He just advanced it a few years. The russians still haven't figured it out. I don't undestand why we trade with them. They are just using the profits to try to distroy us. Nixon should never have gone over there. We should have left them in the dark ages they were in. 
 
Sheryl

jefflucas · #9 04-06-2001, 04:20 AM

On 4/5/01 10:08:30 PM, Jonina Dourif wrote: 
 
>Carol, 
> 
>I heard that it was a very sophisticated 
>"surveillance (spy) plane" I heard that 
>it was so elite, in fact, that the 
>pilots were suppose to "self-destruct 
>and destroy" it rather than land. 
> 
>Both parties are acting like war (in my 
>opinion). It's just a 
>covert-under-current one. 
> 
>Here's my (cynical & opinionated) 
>prediction. 
>The US will apologize, China will return 
>the (thoroughly interrogated) pilots and 
>plane. The politicians will present 
>their carefully calculated speeches and 
>sad faces, then they will shake hands 
>and smile for the cameras. Everyone will 
>gripe for a while (until something else 
>happens) and CNN will rake in the 
>ratings and nothing will change. 
> 
>Any other predictions? 
 
 
The Chinese had better act soon because they underestimate the unity and resolve of the
American people when their brothers, husbands, wives and daughters (servicemen & women)
are held hostage by communist thugs against their will. We should stop buying products that
are made in China and revoke their favored trade status immediately. See what happens to
their economy when they have to start shutting down their factories. We'll get the plane back.
We're busily preparing to trade with them while they are preparing for war and we should do
something about that. 
"CNN will rake in the ratings and nothing will change." 
 
CNN's ratings have been in a freefall ever since they started having real competition. CNN's cofounder was on TV yesterday explaining that people started tuning out when the network became all-O.J.-all-of-the-time a few years ago. But I think the truth is that people grew tired of their biased reporting. CNN had a monopoly until very recently so people watched any way. Now that there are alternative 24 news channels and unfiltered news and wires on the internet, people have other news sources and so they are tuning out now in droves.

kholmar · #10 04-06-2001, 08:04 AM

Description: Four-engine turboprop signals intelligence (SIGINT) reconnaissance aircraft. 
SIGINT=Signals Intelligence (radio/radar intercept) 
 
<a target=_new href="http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/aircraft/air-ep3e.html">http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/aircraft/air-ep3e.html</a> 
 
Its a spy plane. Nobody is denying this fact. 
 
bill

#11 04-06-2001, 10:40 AM

Photo of crew 
 
<img src="http://www.cnn.com/images/0104/top.us.crew.jpg">

kholmar · #12 04-06-2001, 11:39 AM

Clipped from an MSNBC story 
 
Sealock, who led the seven-member U.S. delegation that visited the crew, reported that they were being housed in officers’ quarters and were being given catered food, Powell said. 
In a brief statement in Haikou, China, after the meeting, Sealock said, “The crew is in great spirits. They are all together and are looking forward to being released and returning home.” 
Sealock said visiting diplomats had checked the health of the crew and confirmed that they had received books, toiletries and other supplies passed to them via Chinese officials. 
 
<sarcasm> 
damn dirty commie savages. 
</sarcasm> 
 
billiam, a real Texas cowboy

Sheryll · #13 04-06-2001, 11:49 PM

On 4/6/01 11:39:20 AM, William Colston wrote: 
>Clipped from an MSNBC story 
> 
>Sealock, who led the 
>seven-member U.S. delegation 
>that visited the crew, 
>reported that they were being 
>housed in officers’ quarters 
>and were being given catered 
>food, Powell said. 
>In a brief statement in 
>Haikou, China, after the 
>meeting, Sealock said, “The 
>crew is in great spirits. They 
>are all together and are 
>looking forward to being 
>released and returning home.” 
>Sealock said visiting 
>diplomats had checked the 
>health of the crew and 
>confirmed that they had 
>received books, toiletries and 
>other supplies passed to them 
>via Chinese officials. 
> 
> 
>damn dirty commie savages. 
> 
> 
>billiam, a real Texas cowboy 
> 
The Chinese military is not too politically savvy and have gotten the civilian leaders in a tight spot. They know that they were in the wrong but they must save face, so they are making demands but will settle for what ever straw we will give them. The Bush people are playing this just right. No threats etc to force them into a corner. They know in reality that we could with the stroke of a pen destroy their economy. They will bluster and quietly agree to give the people back but will have stripped the plane in an attempt to reverse engineer the electronics. Hopefully they were able to destroy much of it before they landed. 
 
Sheryl

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