"The Fatboss" Interview with Joni Dourif

(A Sony Music Magazine)

December 1999


If you could go back in time, would you do it? If you could travel into the future, would you go? Interested in angels or shape-shifters? If the answer is yes to any of the above, then look no further.

PSI TECH is known as the 'Microsoft of the psi-industry.' Using a skill known as Remote Viewing, a once top-secret 'black' US Military project, the people at PSI TECH claim that they can 'perceive' anywhere in time and space by just sitting in a room. They travel using their mind, tapping into a universal source of information - what Carl Jung called the 'collective unconscious' and what PSI TECH calls the 'Matrix' (yes, that's where the film got its name).

Since its development in the late 1970s by the Stanford Research Institute, Remote Viewing has been used by the FBI, the CIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency and the Secret Service. Remote Viewers were called in to pinpoint hostages during the Iran hostage crisis of 1980. It has been used to determine the reasons for aircraft disasters. During the Gulf War, a team led by PSI TECH's founder, the President of PSI TECH, used Remote Viewing to advise the US Military of Saddam's biochemical warfare facilities and rocket launcher sites.

So what is this? Does this skill live in the realms of the occult? PSI TECH says that this 'psychic' ability is innate in humans and simply requires exercising and fine-tuning the 'psi muscle'. They say that it's just like learning a language. Once learnt, there is nothing that you cannot know. Sounds too good to be true. It's straight outta a comic book, right? THE FATBOSS checked out their new training tapes and exclusively met with PSI TECH's Vice President, Joni Dourif, to find out what on Earth is going on.


TFB: So Joni, tell me about the history of Remote Viewing.

JONI DOURIF: It was a top secret funded program in the Department of Defense - the Defense Intelligence Agency. It was during the Cold War period when the Russians were studying psychics, so the Americans decided to do it too. They gave one of the world's leading physicists, who has an interest in this area, $50,000 to come up with a method by which we could train ourselves to become psychic. They developed it for Military espionage.

TFB: How long have you been doing it?

JONI DOURIF: Since the early nineties; '92/'93.

TFB: With the training, what would be the first step, what's the first stage? What's the first thing that you teach the people who get involved?

JONI DOURIF: The first thing that we teach people is that we let them know that this is not magic. We try to take away their ideas about 'oh, this is so mysterious' and 'oh, you know, I'm going to be in contact with spirits' and things like that. We take that away as much as we can and we pretty much just crack the whip. It's pretty much just 'get in there and walk through the steps', make yourself do the physical aspect of it. It's like 'take the body and the mind will follow'. You don't have to believe it. You just have to do it, and you have to do it correctly, and it'll work. That's the bottom line. That's it.

TFB: Is Remote Viewing a bit like meditation?

JONI DOURIF: No, it's not a meditative process, it's not like that. It's nothing like anything else you have done, that's all I can say. There's no template, there's no background for you to draw on. It's like a combination of doing martial arts and watching a really good movie at the same time, sort of. But even then that's not an accurate description.

TFB: I mean, for instance, could you be speaking to me on the phone and be seeing me as well?

JONI DOURIF: No no, not at all. It's a conscious process. You actually sit down with paper, it's a state of high attention and it's very structured and disciplined. You have to be awake, alert, not hungry. You don't have to really be in a focused state. You don't have to meditate or anything to prepare yourself because the protocols, in themselves, provide that structure for your mind to download the information. So, if you want to compare it to a computer, say, the TRV (Technical Remote Viewing) protocols are the software and the body is the hardware, and you are downloading information from the Internet (laughs); the collective unconscious. That is kind of an effective metaphor.

TFB: When you practice this skill is it like an out-of-body experience that you have?

JONI DOURIF: It's not like out-of-body. You're literally downloading information, so while you are Remote Viewing, the structure itself in Remote Viewing minimizes the personal experience. So it's not like out-of-body, where somebody's going 'wow, look at that, that's so cool'. They did study 'out-of-body' in the Military before Remote Viewing was discovered, but the problem was that they would have these guys who would go out of body and into the Russian Embassy, for example, and they'd be having this great experience but when the they came back, they were so overwhelmed by their experience, they forgot the data they went to find. Very much like a lot of these abduction cases, where people have experiences and their imagination takes over and it becomes totally deluded.

TFB: Do you have to like practice Remote Viewing all the time?

JONI DOURIF: It's a skill like anything else. So, the more you do it the better you get. I mean there's nothing mysterious or mystical about it. It's like learning a language, or learning a martial art.

TFB: And you're like a black belt right?

JONI DOURIF: (laughs) Yeah I guess so.

TFB: Do you think that Remote Viewing improves things that you are naturally good at?

JONI DOURIF: Well, if it involves your psi-muscle, which is our intuitive muscle, then yeah.

TFB: Which part of the brain is that?

JONI DOURIF: Well, we use Carl Jung's model of the psyche. He says that people are broken up into four basic functions. There's the intellect, the emotional, the physical and instinct/intuition. So that psi-muscle is the forth one, which is the instinct/intuition. We use his model and it works. So yeah, according to him, before he died, he said that this was the part of the mind that is least known to man and it was the part that was going to become known by the next turn of the next century and of course he was talking about now. This discovery was incredible because it's the first time that we know of that we have been able to train ourselves to direct our unconscious wherever we want and we haven't been able to do that before.

TFB: I mean, it sounds incredible, doesn't it? It's really kind of like science fiction.

JONI DOURIF: (laughs) It sounds that way I guess yeah, when you aren't used to it.

TFB: Is it like a work-out? Is it like going to the gym and having a work-out?

JONI DOURIF: Yeah, actually when you first learn it, it's quite exhausting. When people are first learning it, they're exhausted after doing one session, and typically one session is about forty-five minutes. After you have a very polished, disciplined psi-muscle, you begin to become more naturally psychic in your everyday life, but that's like exercising any muscle, if you exercise any part of your body, you're going to be more physically fit. So, it's really just a down-to-Earth, basic skill, it's just that it's an area that's new to mankind right now. Maybe one time it wasn't.

TFB: If I wanted to perceive something which other people didn't want me to like - like some Governmental files or something - can anyone stop me if I had Remote Viewing skills?


TFB: Not at all?

JONI DOURIF: No one can do that.

TFB: If the Military's known about this for so long, why hasn't it been any public knowledge, of it until recently?

JONI DOURIF: Well, when you say the Military, first of all, we're talking about Military Intelligence here and you know how compartmentalized it is. So it was a small portion of the very special part of Military Intelligence - there weren't that many people who knew about this program. There were a few generals and higher up people who were supportive of this, but it was kept a tight secret because many of the Military people consider it the occult or, you know, demonic.

TFB: So it's whether you believe in it or not.

JONI DOURIF: No, you don't have to believe in it.

TFB: I mean, when you Remote View, could you for instance see something on other planets?

JONI DOURIF: Oh absolutely, yeah. There are no limitations.

TFB: Can you influence events when you Remote View?

JONI DOURIF: Oh, you mean is Remote Influencing real? There's a term that somebody thought of ever since we went public called Remote Influencing and right now it's pretty much what people would like to have happen. No, it's not real yet. I think it probably will be one day, but that's more along the lines of telekinesis. And actually, a PSI TECH project right now - the one we're most avidly working on - is getting the protocols to be able to learn and teach telekinesis like we did with Remote Viewing. Telekinesis is moving things. Well, so far, where we are in this project is that first we have to determine what the commonalty is between all these people who perform telekinesis. And we haven't been able to really determine that yet, because it seems like people who do it, there's so many variations on how they do it, that there's not a specific commonalty yet - we haven't found it yet.

TFB: I'm just thinking, it's incredible, right. It's an incredible like power.

JONI DOURIF: It's not a power though, I don't like it being referred to as a power. People are powerful, Remote Viewing isn't. People can be powerful, Remote Viewing is just a skill.


TFB: If you can look into the future, does that mean that people have a destiny?

JONI DOURIF: Well, we don't call it a destiny, we call it a 'trajectory' and we've come to the conclusion that, from doing enough of people's different futures, is that, there's trajectories. If you look at yourself as a pattern in the collective unconscious, in Carl Jung's theory of the collective unconscious and each one, every person, place, thing or event is a blueprint in the collective unconscious.

TFB: So there's millions and millions of different paths and choices that you can make to affect millions of different futures?

JONI DOURIF: No, because you already have made certain choices up until this time, right now, so the choices that you've made up to this point in your life, if you were to Remote View your future, some people do have a destiny, other people have three trajectories and if they make this choice, they'll be on this one and if they keep going the way they're going now, they'll be on that trajectory and in that sense, you can look at your future, yeah.

TFB: Wow.

JONI DOURIF: What most people will do is they'll look at their optimum trajectory which is the path that you'll be the happiest on. And it helps a lot because you can tell if you're on the right path or if you're making the right choices to make yourself happy or, usually if a person isn't and they've gotten to the point when they can do their optimum trajectory, they'll know, they'll say 'oh, it was that thing that I wanted to do years ago and I've always wanted to do that and I've never done it.' Then they'll go off and do it.

TFB: Wow, and what, they would kind of know who to call, or . .

JONI DOURIF: Well, they just start heading in the direction of umm . .it's a life-changing skill. I don't know anybody who has learnt this and it hasn't changed their life. And in a subtle but profound way it expands your horizons - all of a sudden, everything you thought you could only guess at, now you can know. . . .


TFB: So, do you know the birth of mankind, for instance? (Laughs)

TFB: I mean, something quite profound. Have you checked out a lot of religious things to see whether they are actually true?

JONI DOURIF: Yeah, if you have a look at the transcripts of the radio shows that we have done over the years - PSI TECH has made a project of looking at quite a few biblical things.

TFB: And what is it, is it mostly kind of word-of-mouth stories or . . .

JONI DOURIF: Some of them are and some of them aren't. And actually he goes into detail in quite a few of those shows. And all the transcripts are on our web site.

TFB: So, is there a God?

JONI DOURIF: (Laughs) Yeah, there is a God, that I can say. Unmistakably, we have found there is definitely a higher intelligence that is not just a vast void out there.

TFB: So, was Jesus real?

JONI DOURIF: Yeah. He was a person.

TFB: And was he the Son of God?

JONI DOURIF: Er, I don't know if I'd term it like that, but he certainly was a special man. I mean, he certainly was a very special man. The difference between Remote Viewing Jesus and anybody in time, I mean anybody who you're gonna Remote View who was that far back in time, you have a folklore surrounding that and a lot of writing surrounding it, so you have to weed through that too. Umm, but yeah, the man himself was very special. A very special person.


TFB: I mean, the thing that staggers me is that there's a past and future already there. So that means that time is not linear, right?

JONI DOURIF: Well, time is linear, but we exist, possibly in time, and then there is another place where time doesn't exist is our theory on it.

TFB: Is that the place that you go when you dream?

JONI DOURIF: I would guess so. I'm not an expert on that. I mean, I'm guessing. We can look at things like that and those are huge projects and it takes a lot of figuring out from analysis of the data, but yeah, that's our conclusion - that the past, present and future all do exist in the moment. That makes sense to us, but to say definitely that that's it, I don't know.

TFB: It's even deeper than that, right?

JONI DOURIF: I don't know, it might even be simpler than that.

TFB: So, have you got any control over what the collective unconscious does?

JONI DOURIF: Only in your own participation in it. And each one of us is a part of it. So we're a part of the collective, so each one does participate and each one has an effect on the whole.

TFB: But that collective is going somewhere in a particular direction all the time?

JONI DOURIF: Yeah, if people are like sheep and tend to believe and do the same thing over and over again, they've created a collective trajectory that, if there's only a few who are conscious of what's going on, are probably not going to be able to affect. But then, I can't say that that's definite either. I mean perhaps those few who are aware can have a dynamic effect just because they're probably using more of their awareness.

TFB: So they would be able to kind of mould it right?

JONI DOURIF: Well, they can make a difference by having the ability, the skill to look up over the clouds and see what's ahead, where, if you have that advantage and you see where you're going, you can make wiser choices in the present. So, in terms of that, yes, you certainly can make a difference.

TFB: So, would there be a hierarchy kind of structure on the collective unconsciousness, or is it just as, like, on the Internet. Are there higher 'people' who can stop you looking at certain things for instance.

JONI DOURIF: Umm, I think the collective unconscious is pretty much just a pattern of information in and of itself; that we are all just like books in a library or blueprints in a dynamic, but also static field. But then, when you talk about hierarchies of people, we haven't seen that to tell the truth.


JONI DOURIF: There was a time when we were really determined to find out if this past-life stuff was real or not and we couldn't find one person who actually had spent a life here on Earth and had come back. Not even these swamis that claim to be coming back for their 20,000th time. It seemed that the one thing that did seem really across the board similar, the same thing across the board, was when people die, there are two angels; they come and one takes your mind, one takes your memory and they escort you away somewhere else and that when we go to this somewhere else, we have a different body and we haven't forgotten who we were. That's a tremendous relief, to find out. I don't know, before I Remote Viewed I used to think that we would just dissipate into this massive void and I would forget who I was .

TFB: I mean, are they there to guide you or just to be with you?

JONI DOURIF: Some are there to guide you. There is a hierarchy in the angelic system. Some are there to guide you, others are there for other reasons. Actually there's an interesting story when PSI TECH's president was in the Military, he didn't believe in angels or aliens or anything like that until they were . . this was classified They had six Remote Viewers and he was the Operations and Training Officer and around the world there was this anomalous thing that was happening, nuclear missiles were being disarmed and nobody knew why or how it was happening, so it got sent to him as a problem - this was a unit that things like that got sent to. So Ed tasked the Remote Viewers against it. He remote viewed it himself also. He kept getting the same data back, over and over again and he couldn't understand it because he'd never seen anything like this before. So he went out to research what in the world matches this data. Now he was using Military professional Remote Viewers who would come to work and do this for a living. They didn't know what they were Remote Viewing - they'd give him the data, and he would have these sessions that he'd have to analyze. He went out to the library and found the Urantia book.

TFB: What is that?

JONI DOURIF: It's a book that was written in the early 1900's and it has a huge section on angels. You can look it up on the Internet actually, they have a huge Internet site.

TFB: Who wrote it?

JONI DOURIF: I don't know. These angels and other things I guess. I think it's a channeled kind of a book like 'The Coarse in Miracles.' And so, when PSI TECH's president was looking for the data to find out what it was, that was the closest - when he found in the Urantia book the description of angels, it matched the data that the Remote Viewers had come up with. Then he started tasking the Remote Viewers specifically against these parts of the Urantia book to see if it matched the other data of this nuclear disarmament, right? And that's what changed his life. He found out that angels were real and he actually had to brief his superiors and say something as crazy as that. They weren't sure if he had just gone over the deep end or not. That's what begun his extreme fascination with angels, so this is exactly what we've seen happen with every person that we've Remote Viewed for and we keep expecting to find somebody for whom it happens differently. Like, we even looked at Adolf Hitler to see, oh well, you know, two angels can't come for him, right, because he's so evil. Well, no, two angels came for him. It's just like everybody we looked at.

TFB: And would he go to a negative place? Say if you were a positive person on this reality so to speak, right. Would you go off to a positive place? I mean, is there like, retribution?

JONI DOURIF: I don't know that. We haven't looked at that specifically as a specific topic.

TFB: Are the angles different races? Are my ones different to your ones?

JONI DOURIF: Yes, they are different races. They're different than us. Are we angels when we leave? It doesn't appear to be so. It appears as though we are really a different make up than them - completely different.

TFB: What do they look like? Is there one race? Is there one angelic race, or are there many different types . . . ?

JONI DOURIF: They are different. Our (PSI TECH's) president thinks that the grey aliens are cousins to angels. I'm not so sure I agree with him, but certainly they have a lot in common.

TFB: How do you deal with, I mean, for instance, say if you had a loved one who died, alright. Can you go back in time and see them? Course you can, right?

JONI DOURIF: Yeah, you don't have to go back in time though.

TFB: What can you do?

JONI DOURIF: You can actually perceive how they are - what they are doing right then and there. That's how we know that you don't die, you don't disappear, you don't lose your identity. Because we're able to Remote View people who have passed over to the other side and, er, they're real and they're there, somewhere.


JONI DOURIF: We have looked at a lot of demonic possessions, sickness and things like that.

TFB: And is that real?

JONI DOURIF: Umm, yeah. In some cases it's real and some cases it's our own demons that we create.

TFB: So, we can create demons?

JONI DOURIF: We create our own demons, yeah. Most of the time that's what it is. We'll create our own negative force that will behave as something that will appear to us and feel to us like it's real, like it's something outside of ourselves when actually it's similar to a poltergeist. It's something that our psyche has created and it's spun off and created its own entity. Basically so that it can smack us around so we do what we're supposed to do.

TFB: And then you could fight it off, right?

JONI DOURIF: Well, according to Carl Jung, you don't fight it off, you integrate it. So integration is the key to healing that kind of a sickness. You have to actually take it back into yourself and process it, break it out and process it, find out what it was, and digest it.


TFB: Now, stuff like ouija boards and crystal balls and tarot cards and all of these things; the kind of occult things. Is that tapping into the same things that you tap into in Remote Viewing?

JONI DOURIF: Um, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. You actually have to look at each one of those cases individually and channelers fall into that category too and what the Military did, and we did it also with Psi Tech. Ouija board was usually always the same - it was what we call 'sluphed-off' minds. There's a part of us that stays behind after we're escorted away and the part of us that stays behind is that neurotic - well, any kind of neurosis that we've developed in our lifetime, like any kind of paranoia, if we're agoraphobic, or have an addictive personality. Anything like that - anything that is of this Earth and doesn't apply there, we leave behind.

TFB: Is that what ghosts are?


TFB: That's what ghosts are?

JONI DOURIF: Yeah, thank you. That's basically what they are.

TFB: So, do they have a consciousness?

JONI DOURIF: Well, I mean, when they get sluphed-off like that, they've been with us for a long time, and in a sense, they kind of think they're alive and so they look for somewhere to attach to and, you know, what's better. Sometimes we've seen them attach to animals, but the more common places where they're invited is through these channellers. Ouija board - ouija board is a big invitation. That just is like a shining neon light saying 'come here, come here, you're invited to come here', so the ouija board is . . .

TFB: And they're usually negative things, right?

JONI DOURIF: Um, the . . . well, yeah, because they're sluphed-off minds, right? And they can fool us too, because they have the knowledge and experience of their host during their lifetime, but you can tell a sluphed-off mind if they start repeating themselves. There are no signs of evolution. It becomes redundant and repetitive. And the same goes for channellers. Although sometimes, in the odd case, we have seen a channeller channel angelic type of entities, so channellers aren't always the same. That's what I mean, you have to look at each thing individually.


TFB: Do you know what crop circles are, you must have looked into that right?

JONI DOURIF: (Laughs) You know, all that stuff is on our web site. They're time stamps.

TFB: They're time stamps?

JONI DOURIF: They are people or something, they could be future humans or they could be somebody from a more advanced place or a different time who are travelling in time basically and, if you think about it, it makes perfect sense of course.

TFB: So, you'd be able to read them? Are they messages?

JONI DOURIF: No, they're not messages, they're time stamps. If you're a time traveller, how are you going to know where you are in time? I mean, why would they pick a field, right? And each design is very unique and specific in of itself, but a field - that time stamp will only stay there for what, twenty-four hours really.

TFB: So there are time travellers, right?

JONI DOURIF: Well, it appears so. That's what the crop circles are, so yeah.

TFB: So if there is time travellers, could they change our future, like in Back to the Future?

JONI DOURIF: Hey, you know, maybe it's us in the future. I mean it could be.

TFB: Do you know that?

JONI DOURIF: No we don't know that, but it's a theory.


TFB: Do you know if there's gonna be open UFO landing in my lifetime? I'm twenty-four.

JONI DOURIF: Well, I could say yes, there are open UFO landing sites in your lifetime. They're currently going on all around you, especially over there. You've had quite a few in England.

TFB: Really?

JONI DOURIF: Yeah. A lot of those UFO sightings in England are real. It appears as though the universe is teeming with life and our conscious minds cannot comprehend that there is probably a lot of, you know, other races out there - a lot of things that we're not aware of.

TFB: Can't you know through Remote Viewing exactly why they're coming here.

JONI DOURIF: But, you understand, we have to look at each one individually . . . .

TFB: But why do you think these aliens want to come to Earth?

JONI DOURIF: I try to avoid talking about things like this 'cos it makes us sound so, I don't know, flaky, but you're asking these questions . . .

TFB: OK, I mean I find it fascinating myself.

JONI DOURIF: Yeah, well the data that we've gotten about that is that all of the interventions that we've seen that are ET-related have to do with our environment and the destruction of our environment - how mankind is destroying the Earth basically.

TFB: Why would they be worried about that ?. . .

JONI DOURIF: Probably because it affects them too. I would think that if one planet, if something happens to a large number of people in the collective unconscious . . this is my guess, OK, this is my guess, this is my theory on that. From all the work we've done, this is my theory that I've concluded.


JONI DOURIF: If we have a collective unconscious here on Earth, I would assume that there's a larger one even. If there's other civilizations, and we'd be arrogant to think that there aren't, that there's a universal consciousness, say. Now, if a lot of people drop out of this universal consciousness, it's going to affect it just like if a whole country just suddenly disappears from the Earth and millions of people suddenly disappear - it's going to have a profound impact on the rest of us.

TFB: So if the Earth was destroyed - all these people got wiped out, that would have a wave effect on the whole of the universe?

JONI DOURIF: Yeah. That's my theory. It's just like if we had a country completely destroying itself, just going beyond, you know, I mean like what was happening in Bosnia, there's a time at which we step in, and we say we have to do something, this is outrageous, they're just killing millions and millions of people. Hitler is another good example of that - there's a time at which everybody gets together and says OK, we can't tolerate this anymore and I think it's pretty much the same thing.

TFB: And they're just concerned that we're messing it up?

JONI DOURIF: Yeah, we sure are, aren't we?

TFB: Are the different races that we're unaware of already in our communities for instance.

JONI DOURIF: Well, that we're not aware of? I don't know. Probably. Do you mean, have we seen evidence of that?

TFB: Yeah.

JONI DOURIF: Well, we've seen evidence of it, but not that we're aware of.

TFB: Could there be people who look human but could be something else - an alien for instance.

JONI DOURIF: Umm, we've seen a few cases of that, but the cases that we've seen where a non-human entity is a human is an angel usually, that was able to take a physical form just to communicate something to a person, like a vision. I mean, we've seen that - that's real.

TFB: I mean, for instance, like a shape-shifting type creature like a hulk or something.

JONI DOURIF: OK, yeah, those are real. The shape-shifters, they're real. They're just a different race that comes from the Earth and they live here, like we do and there's not as many of them as us, and they're real. As real as real can be.

TFB: I mean, are they powerful?

JONI DOURIF: Well, they can do things that we can't do, because they are this huge like magnetic field.

TFB: What do they look like?

JONI DOURIF: We actually have one on tape. At one of these harmonic conventions one showed up and this cameraman got one on tape and it got sent through Government labs and it ended up on PSI TECH's founder's desk and of course now we have it and it was analyzed and it's the real thing - it wasn't imagery or a trick. And then of course we Remote Viewed it and it was what the Navajos call shape-shifters and what the Urantia call "midwayers." It's the same description.

TFB: And do they look grotesque or do they look beautiful. I mean, what do they look like?

JONI DOURIF: They're huge and they're scary because they're so big and they feel powerful but they're not dangerous. I mean the most dangerous things as a threat to humans are humans themselves. There's nothing out there as dangerous as humans.

TFB: Really?


TFB: I mean, I'm just curious. I'm trying to envisage this, the shape-shifting thing. Does it look like a monster, or . .

JONI DOURIF: No. It looks like a big white swirly thing.

TFB: So it doesn't look like a tortoise or something?

JONI DOURIF: No, it just looks like a big luminous light, but when you're near it, you can feel that it's a conscious, thinking, living thing.

TFB: So it hasn't got like a physical shape, it's just got a kind of abstract light?

JONI DOURIF: It has a physical shape, it's just so different to us. It's hard to describe. Look up midways in the Urantia book because that was another one that Ed found and tasked the Military Viewers against early on. So we've done a lot of research into angels and midways and they are pretty much how the Urantia book describes them. It's pretty accurate, that book.

TFB: Wow.

JONI DOURIF: I mean there are other things that we looked at in the book that we couldn't validate at all.

TFB: I mean, stuff like goblins and pixies and fairies and grey aliens and stuff - do these exist. (Laughs).

JONI DOURIF: The grey aliens? There's no doubt about it - those are real.

TFB: Are they friendly guys?

JONI DOURIF: Yeah, they are very friendly. The way they operate - their minds are very different to ours. It's very difficult for us to comprehend the way they think and why they do what they do.

TFB: What are they doing?

JONI DOURIF: They're like a cousin to an angel. They're like an angel that takes a physical form - they think like angels, they operate like angels. Except they're more of a mass mentality.

TFB: Like an ant?

JONI DOURIF: Yeah, like an ant, but they're highly intelligent.

TFB: So, is there any uniqueness to any of them or are they kind of clones?

JONI DOURIF: There's something unique about them but there's something very much the same and connected about them also. They really are a different creature. And I mean, they appear to us and of course their technology is way far advanced to ours. They travel in time from planet to planet.

TFB: Why have the greys always been painted as, you know, like, I've read this book about alien abduction, and they sound kind of bad.

JONI DOURIF: Yeah I know. Well, imagine if you were an animal on this planet and you were taken to the vet. Think about a frog in a biology class. I mean, I'm not saying that the aliens are doing that to us, but imagine you're a puppy being taken to the vet to be given medicine. That puppy is not perceiving us as friendly, kind, loving people who are trying to help him. He's perceiving us as scary, big monsters who are trapping him down and doing something horrible that he doesn't understand.

TFB: And it's about perception of things isn't it?

JONI DOURIF: Yes, basically that's what we see in every case. In every real abduction case, that's what going on. We've never seen them be hostile or have any kind of bad intent in any way; it's always for the person's good or for the good of something - a project, or, you know, it's always benevolent in nature.


TFB: What's the deal with alien abductions and the whole kind of conspiracy men in black thing and Area 51 and all these things. Is it what people think it is?

JONI DOURIF: No, the government doesn't know any more about, alien stuff, than our known experts in the civilian sector. As a matter of fact the part of the government that cares enough to even track - and that's usually on an individual interest basis - because there's no charter. There's no funds set up in the Government to study this kind of a thing - it's not a national threat.

TFB: But surely if . . .

JONI DOURIF: There's a lot of anomalous pictures that they've collected over the years, but those are pretty much just sent to the labs in NASA, looked at and verified or not, and then they're thrown over to a program or a person who's in charge of anomalous strange things - that used to be our founder. And they leave it up to him to determine what it is and some listen to him and some don't. I mean it pretty much gets lost.

TFB: Isn't that though one of the greatest things mankind could experience, like communication with other, higher intelligence?

JONI DOURIF: Yeah, but the Government, I mean the Military - I shouldn't say the Government, when we say Government we're talking about such a vast body with so many arms. But the Military is not, they're concerned with national defense.

TFB: So, is there any truth behind the idea of like the greys giving back-dated technology to the Government?

JONI DOURIF: Not at all.

TFB: Really?

JONI DOURIF: God yeah, I'm sure the Military wished. Not at all, there's not truth to it at all.

TFB: Wow, so what is Area 51 that everyone keeps going on about - what happens down there?

JONI DOURIF: It's a top secret facility for Military purposes - it has nothing to do with aliens.

TFB: Really?

JONI DOURIF: Yeah, I mean there's advanced technologies there.

TFB: So, what about the technology that the Military's got. Is it way advanced?

JONI DOURIF: No, I mean they can't travel in time. They certainly don't create the crop circles.

TFB: Thank you so much for you time. It's been incredible talking to you.

JONI DOURIF: My pleasure